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Old 12-23-2014, 07:58 PM
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Default Phase II Enterprise

Yeah, back to the CAD salt mines. I've wanted a Phase II/Constitution II Enterprise for quite a long time, so since a mainstream kit is a distinct non-possibility, its time to CAD one up.

Here are the hull roughs. Obviously, there's a lot to do, like panel lines, the actual deflector dish, etc. I built out the aft end of the ship since Matt Jeffries original Phase II drawings seem to show the beginnings of a little duck tail shape there, so I used some initiative and made the aft section slightly longer and curvier. Plus, I like the look. I'll also eventually look at the few photos of the actual Phase II model out there to correct little details and such. Sadly, the Phase II model was what was used (mostly) for the refit Enteprise's self-destruct scenes, and the model as reportedly used up in the process.

The plan is to make this guy 1/1000th due to printing costs, although I'd love to do this in a larger scale. In the end, its all about the Benjamins.

I'm using the Jeffries plans whenever possible, although they are lacking in detail. The Constitution II drawings, a cleaned up version of the Phase II design, will be used when necessary as supplements, although I may substitute my own views on details where I feel it proper.

Any tips, ideas, or thoughts on doing a proper Phase II Enterprise are much appreciated, and thank you for looking.

Merry Christmas!

Bob







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Old 12-23-2014, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Here's the assembly of saucer and engineering hull. The saucer obviously has a long way to go. An interesting thing about the Jeffries drawings is that, simple as they are, they show a very relaxed curve on the saucers lower lip. It isn't nearly as square, yet still rounded, as the refit's lower saucer curve. He probably meant for the stock TOS saucer to be represented, but going from the drawings there is definitely a difference, s I'm going with the Jeffries drawing.

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Old 12-23-2014, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Here's the bridge. I'm about to turn in. The flu has kept me up, and I have to hit the rack sometime. Anyway, here it is. Any opinions on size? It looks ever so slightly large to my eyes, but then TOSish bridge domes always do. Note the dual elevator domes - no turning the bridge to the side to account for the TOS ship's one turbolift! And no, she won't get torpedo tubes right there in front. Since the ship already has the beginnings of a neck torpedo launcher, that'll be good enough,





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Old 12-24-2014, 05:11 AM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Wow...just wow!
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Old 12-24-2014, 11:47 AM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

I'll be in the Land of No Internet (aka Mom's) for Christmas for a few days, so no new updates 'til then. I hope to have the engineering hull better textured by then, certainly the neck.

Until then, I hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas!


Bob
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Old 12-26-2014, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Okay, hereís the update.

Starting with the secondary hull...
- Panel lines were added and filled in. They donít match the Constitution II drawings exactly, by any means, but I admit to using them as inspiration as the Jeffries drawings donít show them, at least I canít see any on them. Its fair to say that the panel lines are roughly where the Constitution II has them, but by no means exactly there.
-A small aft undercut navigation light position was added. This may eventually become an aft single mount phaser position. Its always seemed like such a perfect location for a phaser mount, so that may eventually happen. I have versions with both prepared, so weíll see...
-The Jeffries drawings do not show the little spine extrusion running from the trailing end of the neck to the fantail along the to center of the hull that the Refit has. Therefore, I made the executive decision to leave it off, keeping the hull more streamlined and simple, like the TOS ship.

The pylons...
- Wow, this took time, perhaps more than the neck to figure out. The big issue is that the pylons are not oriented off of the engineering hullís fore to aft centerline axis, but rather to a point above it. They jut out at about 125 point something degrees, depending upon how closely you measure them, so I chose 125 degrees just to keep everything easy. And, they obviously sway or angle backwards. So, I sat here making multiple lofts between the pylon start and end points, the starting sketch inside the engineering hull, the ending sketch suspended out in space where the pylon would end and the attachment to the warp nacelle would begin. Wow, that took awhile to figure out!
- Iím torn about putting reinforcements where the pylons meet the engineering hull. None are shown on the Jeffries drawings, and indeed, none were on the TOS ship. However, the Refit featured them, and I tend to think that the Phase II ship would have received them at some point when the model was built and/or refined further for the screen. In the end, I just very slightly filleted the join between pylon and hull, giving the illusion of a reinforcing structure there, while keeping the hull looking streamlined; admittedly, a bit of a halfway solution. In 1000th scale, it probably wonít be noticeable, but Iíll know its there.
- The cutouts on the upper and lower surfaces are subject to interpretation. I did the best I could, and then extruded little rib details within to replicate vents or whatever theyíre supposed to be. Right now, the lower cutouts are plain, and may stay that way given how thin th trailing edges are - given my limited CAD skills, getting rib details in there and in a proper, equal heights way is hard. And anyway, there arenít any details in the Jeffries drawings, so thay may stay blank. Weíll see.
-The pylon leading edges are devoid of detail in the Jeffries drawings; theyíre just plain channels. I added some rib details in there like the Refit has on the theory that the model makers would have put it in eventually to add on screen detail, or that Jeffries would have added it himself. Remember, the Jeffries drawings are simple, basic views and probably not the final model building plans, so a little bit of improvisation and interpretation seems acceptable. .

The neck...
- This was the hardest part, so far. The Jeffries drawings show the neck to be contoured and streamlined in nature, almost like an airfoil, much like the TOS Enterpriseís neck. However, as these drawings didnít include sections, I made things simple for myself and just made the neck a straight rectangle, in section. Then, the ends were chamfered and filleted in order to soften the corners and impart a faux airfoil section. It isnít perfect, but it was a nice, simple, quick method.
- The dual torpedo launcher was designed and installed. The Jeffries drawings show a sort of double bubble arrangement, or perhaps a near figure-eight shape when viewed from the front. It turns out itís the only visible weapons site on the entire design, so the jury is out as to whether Matt Jeffries intended there to be others, or not. The Constitution II design has the launcher being a single unit, but I decided to make my Phase IIís a double launcher like the Refitís. First, its familiar to us all, and second, the double bubble arrangement on the Jeffries drawing makes me think there should be a second launcher in there, so... The launcher body curves inward and slightly downwards into the neck/engineering hull join, like the Jeffries drawing shows. Some small surface detailing and the like was also added.

The bridge...
- The bridge was redone to make for a more defined B/C deck. I actually like the look of the original bridge I made, but this looks more reminiscent of both the TOS design and the Jeffries drawings.

The saucer...
- Panel lines were laid down, as were the small personnel hatches. I chose to deviate from the Constitution II design slightly in terms of their placement. It was simply easier to make them all equidistant and equal in terms of degrees from the centerpoint. The Connie II has the bow hatch off center, compared to the rest, so I just went simple. There.
- The lower sensor dome was kept small and essentially circular, like the TOS shipís.

Thank you for looking! More to come as more gets done. Also, there are a coupleof anomolies in the images. In some views, it looks like little pie sections of the saucer are missing. Thatís just a rendering artifact; I assure you, those pieces are there, they just arenít being rendered properly by my crappy on-board graphics chip. Thereís also a structure hanging off the aft end of the engineering hull. Thatís just a reference structure used to base the pylon angles off of. It will be deleted when the design reaches completion.

Merry Christmas!

Bob

















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  #7  
Old 12-27-2014, 12:19 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Hey, before I go any further, does anyone have any constructive comments or critiques about the model's shape, or about any obvious details or shapes that I've missed? Admittedly, this design is a bit of an interpretation of a Phase II Enterprise, and is open to personal interpretation given the paucity of details out there about the actual model and its design, but if there's anything I've overlooked up to this point, please chime in and let me know. I'm nearing the design freeze point, where everything is pretty much locked in. I may change the fantail and shuttle bay area to more closely resemble the TOS ship's, but other than that, what am I missing?

Thanks,

Bob

PS. Here's praying this thing prints when the time comes!!!
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Old 12-27-2014, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Okay, I'll bite...

Throughout this thread you've made statements that run counter to what is known about this design. You seem to believe things weren't finalized that actually were, that other things were open to interpretation that weren't, all of which is less than a google search away.

When I first did research on this design back in 2007, there was very little information available... but there was still enough to make a very good representation. But for me, personally, there didn't seem to be enough information to build it without injecting too much fan interpretation into the mix. I only revisited the design after Brick Price contacted me in 2012, and started my build of the Phase II Enterprise model shortly after that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
I built out the aft end of the ship since Matt Jeffries original Phase II drawings seem to show the beginnings of a little duck tail shape there, so I used some initiative and made the aft section slightly longer and curvier.
There wasn't any of this in Jefferies' work (publicly available or not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
Panel lines were added and filled in. They donít match the Constitution II drawings exactly, by any means, but I admit to using them as inspiration as the Jeffries drawings donít show them, at least I canít see any on them.
Jefferies had panel lines all over... but they were meant to be subtle. On my model (at 1/500th scale) I represented then with weathering rather than physical lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
The Jeffries drawings do not show the little spine extrusion running from the trailing end of the neck to the fantail along the to center of the hull that the Refit has. Therefore, I made the executive decision to leave it off, keeping the hull more streamlined and simple, like the TOS ship.
The single biggest mistake most people make is trying to include TMP elements in the Phase II design... if the TMP elements weren't there it is because they weren't there. Jefferies didn't leave them off, they just weren't part of the design. If there is something missing from the design, take that detail from the TOS design.

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Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
Iím torn about putting reinforcements where the pylons meet the engineering hull. None are shown on the Jeffries drawings, and indeed, none were on the TOS ship. However, the Refit featured them, and I tend to think that the Phase II ship would have received them at some point when the model was built and/or refined further for the screen.
No, they were the way they were. And the studio model was nearly complete without any of this stuff that wouldn't be added to the design until Richard Taylor and Andrew Probert started reworking Jefferies' design for TMP.

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Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
The cutouts on the upper and lower surfaces are subject to interpretation. I did the best I could, and then extruded little rib details within to replicate vents or whatever theyíre supposed to be. Right now, the lower cutouts are plain, and may stay that way given how thin th trailing edges are - given my limited CAD skills, getting rib details in there and in a proper, equal heights way is hard. And anyway, there arenít any details in the Jeffries drawings, so thay may stay blank.
There is tons of detail to those areas... Jefferies spent a lot of time designing them. Of course your support pylons are half as thick as Jefferies' drawings, so that makes it harder to do anything with them on your model.

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Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
The pylon leading edges are devoid of detail in the Jeffries drawings; theyíre just plain channels. I added some rib details in there like the Refit has on the theory that the model makers would have put it in eventually to add on screen detail, or that Jeffries would have added it himself.
Have you seen the TMP model? That model is devoid of any features in it's leading and trailing edge channels, and it was a bigger model than the Phase II Enterprise. Jefferies' design has a ton of openings that lead to unseen areas hidden in shadows. These areas were meant to keep the audience wondering what might be there just out of sight. This type of design feature pops up in a bunch of spots on the Phase II Enterprise, and I did my best to reproduce those even at a small scale.

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Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
Remember, the Jeffries drawings are simple, basic views and probably not the final model building plans, so a little bit of improvisation and interpretation seems acceptable.
The final plans are public, they were done as a single sheet using the design's symmetries to get as much on the page as possible at a one-to-one scale with the final studio model. These were the plans that Brick Price and Don Loos were using to build the studio model... so no, improvisation and interpretation isn't needed here. If you deviate from them it is because you are doing a fan interpretation design, plain and simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
This was the hardest part, so far. The Jeffries drawings show the neck to be contoured and streamlined in nature, almost like an airfoil, much like the TOS Enterpriseís neck. However, as these drawings didnít include sections, I made things simple for myself and just made the neck a straight rectangle, in section.
There are sectional contours on the plans, I used them to build my model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aptivaboy View Post
The dual torpedo launcher was designed and installed. The Jeffries drawings show a sort of double bubble arrangement, or perhaps a near figure-eight shape when viewed from the front. It turns out itís the only visible weapons site on the entire design, so the jury is out as to whether Matt Jeffries intended there to be others, or not.
For Phase II those were the phasers, and the design had a single emitter at the back of a cone shaped cavity with a targeting lens/disk suspended at the opening. The plans are actually really clear on the design of this. No jury ( or jury tampering) required.


If you want to do a fan interpretation of the Phase II Enterprise, great! More power to ya! But please, PLEASE, don't inject misinformation about the history of the actual design/model to justify/rationalize you're esthetic choices.

My model is a historical research project to bring to life Jefferies' design. I can't tell you the number of times I looked at the model and said to myself this would look better another way, and then had to stop and remind myself that this is Jefferies' design... not mine.

If you needed help on any of this stuff, I have a whole thread with diagrams breaking down the elements to help make their geometry as clear as possible. But even without those, as pointed out earlier, if you just read the publicly available plans as drawn you can't go too wrong.
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Old 12-27-2014, 02:59 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Good afternoon,

The plans Iím using are located here (http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...s-phase-II.php). Iím guessing they look familiar. The observations Iíve made are directly from those plans. For example, the reinforcements at the pylon to hull join are not there in the plans, so I left them off. Likewise, the panel lines which are indistinct and light on the engineering hull, and certainly not on the saucer drawings. Hence, the need to interpret and interpolate certain design elements and aesthetic details. I tend to take the long view. Every sci-fi ship studio model that we've seen for any long length of time has been altered or modified, either by having bits added or through paintwork. The Phase II would almost certainly have been no different had the series actually come to fruition for a run of more than a few seasons.

As with many things, my Phase II design is an interpretation. I never claimed it was an absolutely perfect replica, nor have I intended it to. Indeed, I mentioned that I had altered the shuttlebay doors and aft area profile to suit my interpretation of the drawings, which do seem to show a flattening or taper moving fore to aft at just that section, hence the ducktail reference. It reminded me of the beavertail profile on early A model F-14 Tomcats just aft of the speedbrakes and in between the engines. You and I will just have to disagree with that interpretation. Another area of interpretation involves the neck sections, which are not there on your cleaned up plans listed above. There is a sectional profile for where the neck weapons fit is, but nothing else on those three sheets.

Youíll also note that I stated in the thread opening, ďI'm using the Jeffries plans whenever possible, although they are lacking in detail. The Constitution II drawings, a cleaned up version of the Phase II design, will be used when necessary as supplements, although I may substitute my own views on details where I feel it proper.Ē Therefore, I think it was pretty clear that some Movie/Refit traits, as well as others, would leak into the CAD model. Again, I never stated that it was a 100% perfect replica.

Thank you for your information regarding, ďIf you needed help on any of this stuff, I have a whole thread with diagrams breaking down the elements to help make their geometry as clear as possible. But even without those, as pointed out earlier, if you just read the publicly available plans as drawn you can't go too wrong.Ē Of course, I didnít know about this so again, thank you for pointing it out. Thank you also for your information about the pylons being too thin. Iíll go back and take a look at them, although their width was taken again, from your cleaned up plans at the link above and placed directly into the CAD model. That may be a rendering issue, making them look thinner than they actually are, especially since my CAD to JPEG converter is a bit weak, but I still appreciate the observation and Iíll still go back and check them out.

I find myself conflicted. When I deviate from your plans, I feel like Iím being scolded, and when I donít (ďThe single biggest mistake most people make is trying to include TMP elements in the Phase II design... if the TMP elements weren't there it is because they weren't there. Jefferies didn't leave them off, they just weren't part of the design. If there is something missing from the design, take that detail from the TOS design.Ē) I still feel like Iím being scolded.

Robert
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Old 12-27-2014, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

This wasn't intended as a scolding for your work. But if you are going to change things, don't rationalize... just go for it and own it. I enjoy variations on a theme, but lets not undermine history to do it (specially history that has taken a long time to come to the surface).

And are you really trying to tell me that you started a Phase II Enterprise thread in this forum without looking at the Phase II Enterprise threads by the person who's cleaned up plans you were using?



And yes, those contours for the dorsal pylon are on the second sheet. here is isolating the key lines...


But here is the thing... you aren't the first to miss that detail. Don Loos missed a lot of those details while building the studio model. Jefferies packed so much detail into that one page that it obscured them from view.

As far as cross checking your work against the plans, here is your front view with the Jefferies version...


That is where I noticed that the pylons were too thin.

If you are wanting more raw source material (that is publicly available), this is a compilation of much of it...


Again, I like where you are going with the design... but lets not continue the false notion that the final design is open for improvisation and interpretation when it actually isn't. This design was nearly as complete as either the TOS Enterprise or TMP Enterprise, it just took longer for the public to finally see it. You can do variations on those designs without trying to change the history for them, you can do the same for the Phase II Enterprise design as well.
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Old 12-27-2014, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Where have I undermined history? I've explained when and where I've deviated from your plans. I explained early on that I would be altering and adding some details, some from the Constitution II plans, some of my own. That is hardly undermining history. It was pretty clear from the beginning that my Phase II design was, as you've put it, a variation. As a grade 10-11 history teacher myself, I'm well aware of the need for proper disclosure, and I have done no such thing as undermine history. Anyway, it truly isn't my intention to be ungentlemanly and engage in a sparring match, so I'll let this point go with the statement that I think I've explained myself fairly well on this point, and more than once.

The neck sections, Sections A-C as you have them, are only for the weapons area, and not for the entire neck. Once the neck lengthens above Section A, I'm not seeing any additional sections. Also, thank you for the extra drawing which does show the saucer panel lines. Again, not meant to sound poor, but the original plans of your's that are online that I was using do not show them. And no, I was unaware that you had made a Phase II model until earlier today. Google is not always your friend, and when I started this project a few weeks ago, I was in a hospital room with spotty internet, appliances on both legs, and rather heavily drugged up from some rather serious orthopedic surgeries; I still can't walk. That isn't meant to sound like a sob story, but it is the reality, so you'll have to excuse me if my understanding of the Phase II isn't as clear as your's. I did the best I could with my version with what I had.

Again, thank you for the additional drawings. I will definitely peruse them.

Bob
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Old 12-28-2014, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Just go with what you like, Bob. It's your project, take it whatever direction takes your fancy.
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Old 01-01-2015, 01:25 PM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Thanks, Griff. You're absolutely right; I'll design it and then print it the way I want it. Hey, that's why its supposed to be a fun hobby, right? We can deviate from the norm and add our own flairs and tweaks to our models. That's what makes them unique.

Bob
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Old 01-03-2015, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Phase II Enterprise

Speaking as a Purist like my friend Shaw, Conflicts between Purists and creationists can be as volatile as the differences between Democrats and Republicans. However, in this case you both are right.... Unlike Democrats all ways being wrong!

Tracy
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Old 01-03-2015, 09:14 AM
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There wouldn't be any "conflict" if David hadn't felt the need to address his dissension of Bob's comments by using such a scolding tone in his response. Taking someone to task over their intrepretation of a design instead of just offering some corrections on their thinking is what starts this sort of foolish feud. Too bad that ego has to often get in the way of human interactions....
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